Subjects who waited at red pedestrian lights with no one else in sight behaved more prosocially in economic games. pic.twitter.com/5rE5F7EOP0
— Rolf Degen (@DegenRolf) January 17, 2016
https://twitter.com/WAWilsonIV/status/688826626818195457
@WAWilsonIV no, I've not
— Gabriel Rossman (@GabrielRossman) January 17, 2016
@GabrielRossman He claims that those who wait at red lights at 2am with no cars are also more likely to be genocide accomplices.
— Will Wilson (@WAWilsonIV) January 17, 2016
@GabrielRossman He vividly describes fantasizing about going to a group of Germans waiting at a red light and begging them to break the law.
— Will Wilson (@WAWilsonIV) January 17, 2016
@GabrielRossman "You need to practice breaking stupid rules when it's costless and obviously a good idea, so you're ready when it matters."
— Will Wilson (@WAWilsonIV) January 17, 2016
@WAWilsonIV Does he argue that breaking just, but possibly stupid laws is costless? @GabrielRossman
— SedLibera (@SedLibera) January 17, 2016
@SedLibera @GabrielRossman No, just that it's worth it in more cases than we think and that we should view it as a practicing of the virtues
— Will Wilson (@WAWilsonIV) January 17, 2016
@SedLibera @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman His lesson is probably a good one for already high-trust societies.
— Matt Frost (@mattfrost) January 17, 2016
@mattfrost @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman Maybe! It's a fascinating concept and one I've not encountered before.
— SedLibera (@SedLibera) January 17, 2016
@SedLibera @mattfrost @GabrielRossman It's essentially similar to one of the reasons we fast: spiritual weightlifting for when we need it.
— Will Wilson (@WAWilsonIV) January 17, 2016
@WAWilsonIV @SedLibera @GabrielRossman Related but different: we encourage our kids to practice using fake names with strangers.
— Matt Frost (@mattfrost) January 17, 2016
@mattfrost @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman I've actually been thinking about my kids & how to train them in this virtue this entire time.
— SedLibera (@SedLibera) January 17, 2016
@mattfrost @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman My kids are still young but I do want them to know they should not comply w/unjust laws.
— SedLibera (@SedLibera) January 17, 2016
@SedLibera @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman One good thing is to teach them not to begrudge someone else's harmless rulebreaking.
— Matt Frost (@mattfrost) January 17, 2016
@mattfrost @SedLibera @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman You guys seem insufficiently concerned about creeping anarchy. Also, what about the lesson
— Helen Andrews (@herandrews) January 17, 2016
@mattfrost @SedLibera @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman "People in authority often make mistakes. They do not thereby forfeit their authority."
— Helen Andrews (@herandrews) January 17, 2016
@herandrews @SedLibera @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman My kids are more likely to face pressure to narc on a neighbor than torch Sal's Pizza.
— Matt Frost (@mattfrost) January 17, 2016
@mattfrost @SedLibera @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman Which one will they be under more pressure to applaud when other people do it?
— Helen Andrews (@herandrews) January 17, 2016
@herandrews @SedLibera @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman Now that is an excellent point.
— Matt Frost (@mattfrost) January 17, 2016
@herandrews @SedLibera @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman Also, this summer we endured an episode where authority issues were essential protection.
— Matt Frost (@mattfrost) January 17, 2016
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@herandrews @mattfrost @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman I think I've demonstrated that I'm sufficiently concerned.
— SedLibera (@SedLibera) January 17, 2016
@SedLibera @herandrews @mattfrost @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman I hold a quarterly demonstration of concern for regulatory purposes
— Phil K. (@gotophilk) January 17, 2016
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@herandrews @mattfrost @SedLibera @GabrielRossman Nobody is proposing arming the moderate preschoolers with TOW missiles.
— Will Wilson (@WAWilsonIV) January 17, 2016
@SedLibera @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman Speaking of unicorn moderates, re @mattfrost above, high-trust modern societies are about as rare.
— Helen Andrews (@herandrews) January 17, 2016
@herandrews @SedLibera @WAWilsonIV @GabrielRossman If you don't want to teach your kids to knife the occasional drifter, that's fine, Helen.
— Matt Frost (@mattfrost) January 17, 2016
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3 Responses to Roundtable on Authority & Rebellion
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I’ve Scott’s book a while ago and attended a discussion where he talked about that book, so I don’t remember if this is from the book or from the discussion, but somewhere I heard him mention that some people waited at red lights just in case there were children watching, on the assumption that children should learn, for their own safety, to wait at red lights and the adult example would help.
I don’t know what I think of Scott’s overall argument. It seems to run at cross purposes, as I recall. Sometimes he insists on the importance of engaging in the “calisthenics” of rule-breaking: learning how to break minor rules so that we will be able to break major (and unjust) rules when the time comes. But he also seems to favor a sort of unplanned acting in the moment based on human sympathy. He discusses a group of French protestants who sheltered Jews from the Nazis. Those protestants were fearful of offering shelter and were reluctant to do so, but finally acceded when presented with the actual people needing shelter/aid right away.
And for this:
That’s one problem I have. It’s hard for me not to do that, even if I sometimes break what I think are (relatively) harmless rules. I’m temperamentally a “rules are there to be followed” type of guy, even if intellectually I know that can be dangerous.
How was the book? Sounds interesting.
I’d say it’s worth a read. I don’t know if you’ve read any of his other works (Seeing Like a State, Domination and the Art of Resistance, and probably a lot of others), but he’s a pretty engaging writer.